albums ruined by Sonic Solutions' NoNOISE

You can find out more about NoNoise here:

http://www.sonicstudio.com/

and about CEDAR here:

http://www.cedar-audio.com/

I agree in principle that these processes are not wholly bad. When people slam all of NoNoise or all of CEDAR, I don't think they understand that each company makes a half-dozen completely different processes, only one or two of which affects hiss (and ambience and other audible flaws). In fact, there are actually 15 different processes that are part of the CEDAR Cambridge system, which is an extraordinarily powerful (and expensive) package.

But in general, what you hear from a tape that's been excessively noise-reduced is that it tends to sound dull and muddy, and the noise "modulates" depending on the sounds around it. That is, when somebody starts talking or singing, it gets noisier; when things are quiet, the noise goes down as well. De-hiss processes can also have a terrible effect on reverb and ambience, sharply reducing the sound of the real-life acoustics in the recording. I also think it tends to affect sharp transients, like cymbal hits and subtleties in guitar plucking.

I see both CEDAR and NoNoise de-hissing as necessary evils, but they're used badly more often than they're used well. Note that there are a dozen alternatives to each nowadays, since there is no patent on the idea of using a noise sample and extracting the noise from a recording through phase cancellation, which is essentially how most of these things work.

I think the mistake a lot of mastering engineers make is to try to find a "one size fits all" setting for an entire song, or (even worse) an entire album. To me, unless you carefully tweak the NR throughout the entire process, its side-effects become terribly noticeable. It's not worth sacrificing a lot of detail in return for removing a few dB worth of hiss, but some reissue producers believe otherwise.

 

There's only one Sinatra Capitol song remastered by Bob that sounds very clear - River, Stay Away From My Door. It sounds much cleaner than even the Larry Walsh remastered one. I just don't get it. I know that NR affects more than just clarity, but you'll have to admit that that's its biggest infringement. If Norberg had remastered all Sinatra with the NR technique he applied to River, then I wouldn't be as turned off of his work as I am.

 

Even the 1990 Beach Boys 20 Golden Greats?

 

I thought the original George Harrison "All Things Must Pass" was pretty bad sounding. Was that made with the same NoNoise system that everyone is speaking of?

I remember having that ELO CD that was pictured. I didn't have it long as it was not very good sounding as I recall, so I sold it on ebay.

 

I agree about Levenson. His retirement is our loss.

 

Wait until you hear what that same remastering engineer does to the textures of an orchestra. Capitol / EMI entrusted most of their classic pop heritage reissues to the same engineer who did that Sports remaster. From the beginning of the CD to 1993 and all of them from 1994 - 2007, so the entire "golden age" of the CD. Most of the material seeing its only CD release, and some material having its only release ever. Nat King Cole. Frank Sinatra. Judy Garland. Dean Martin. The 'Spotlight On...' series, the 'Ultra Lounge' series... most of it sounding beautiful on the ageing masters, released on CD at sub-boom-box-level quality standards.



The worst runners up tend to be from EMI, by kionkidink. So as far as I'm concerned, the Worst Abuse of NoNoise and Digital Effects Processing Awards throughout the CD era thus far have been swept by a company that used to boast some of the best quality recordings, Capitol / EMI.

 

Most people assume what they hear must be good, because they also assume the professionals know better. That's one thing they paid their money for...

I don't believe it's of actual commercial value to the labels. Nobody bought a CD because it said "25% less tape hiss!"

Likewise, I've never played anything for anybody and had them say, "wow, there's tape hiss at -40db!" instead of listening to the music.

If anyone ever told me to "turn down that noise!" it was never refering to tape hiss.

Folks buy the CD for the music on it, never for the hiss or lack of hiss on it. When someone buys a remaster, it's either because they didn't have to CD anyway, or they believe what the label reads about "restored" or improved sound.

If anything, I'd suggest that the industry's attempts to market these noise reduction features and the "noisless" aspect of "digital" and the CD brought the noise to the customer's attention in the first place, thereby undermining the perceived desireability and sonic value of "older recordings."

Noise reduction processing has no place being used on a professional recording of music. Some de-clicking techniques on disc-based materials are useful. The processing could also be useful for non-musical applications or used for deliberate sound effects.

 

I agree with much of what you say, but not this. I think there's a way to use NR well, and a way to use it badly. To me, NR is just another tool, like a scalpel. In the hands of an idiot, you can murder the patient; in the hands of a skilled surgeon, it can do a lot of good.

I know of a case (no names, please) where a major label spent upwards of $100K in the early 1990s trying desperately to noise reduce and process a dozen master tapes for a forthcoming CD release, because all the existing library tapes were bad. A week before the master had to ship to the pressing plant, somebody unearthed a set of tapes that were about three generations closer to the master. All of them sounded lightyears better than the processed tapes. Luckily the label elected to eat the cost and use the new tapes, but I remember one staff member arguing that the NR'd tapes sounded better to him. I was glad he was overruled.

Getting great master tapes is always better than trying to use NR to clean up a crap master tape. And a 1st or 2nd-generation tape rarely needs noise reduction at all, assuming it's well-recorded.

 

PFM 24bit Gold Digipak Sonic Marvels?

I don't know what NR process and how much EQ was used but these RCA Italiana CDs sound terrible?
What's the consensus on best sounding and readily available versions of early PFM? I remember reading threads and finding it difficult to come to a conclusion.
Regards, Trevor.

 

Are these the masters used for the 2 CD GOLD set?

Does anyone know?

 

I doubt it

There's plenty of hiss on the Gold set.

 

Great!

 

No.

However, the *remaster* is drenched in NoNoise. The original ATMP CD sounds leagues better than the remaster, which is completely dead-sounding.

I listen to my Capitol LP's which themselves do not sound great, but are miles better than the CD.

Steve remastered ATMP, but his remaster was never released-- that unreleased CD is probably the best this album will ever sound . . .

 

After the fall of the Soviet Union in 1990, NoNoising recordings is the last refuge of Communists. A scourge that must be eliminated - where's Joe McCarthy when we need him??

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trebor
I thought the original George Harrison "All Things Must Pass" was pretty bad sounding. Was that made with the same NoNoise system that everyone is speaking of?

Yes. All original Beatles solo cd's all have unpleasant NR...

The remaster actually uses far less no-noise than the orignal, if any at all. It would run circles around both the old cd and any vinyl pressings, if it hadn't been digitally compressed/volume maximized by John Astley...

 

Can someone describe the sound of a No-Noise CD?

I am guessing that it has less highs, but then my No-Noised Queen CDs (Hollywood) sounds like there is too much treble, especially on the vocals.

 

The standard practice at Abbey Road is to strip away all the hiss and then jack the treble way up to give the illusion of clarity. I imagine this is what was done to the Hollywood CD's. The best way to spot an NR'd CD is to listen for artifacts and lack of air.

 

That's sure what it sounds like.

 

Its entirely possible. I assumed that the "digital cleaning" mentioned on the back cover was extremely heavy NR.

The Indian studio credited is called Pancham Studios. I did a Google search for them and one of their engineers won a CEDAR Award for a restoration of the Doctor Zhivago soundtrack using an LP. Why they used an LP and how this "restoration" was released, I don't know.

 

Here's another case then of when at first listen I thought the remasters sounded great, but I guess I may feel otherwise now. Really, when I listened to those right after getting them, I was quite surprised at how they seemed to sound exactly as I had hoped they would. So of course I gave away all my original CDs!

You're not the first person to say they sound terrible, so it's probably another case (like Genesis) where I played 'em in the car, thought they sounded decent, but probably would have noticed had I played them back to back.

As for different masterings, I'm surprised to learn there were many to choose from. All I ever saw were those original RCA Italian CDs. The only thing I can tell you - and this is going purely from memory is -

Per Un Amico - sounded a bit muffled to me in parts but for the most part was ok.

Chocolate Kings - never liked the mix or EQ of this; always seemed to make everything so muddy that it was difficult to really hear what either the bass or keys were playing. Somehow the remaster was the first time I actually liked the sound of this album! I also had what appeared to be a US release (with the export cover) and I didn't notice any difference in sound between that and the old Italian disc.

Jet Lag - original CD was dull and lifeless. Not enough bottom end for me.

Dunno that this helps any.

 

The Saturday Night Fever soundtrack-1995 Polydor remaster.Sounds like its playing under big blankets.

 

The Palmaccio remaster is actually a touch brighter than the original US CDs I have. Neither have NR. Was there another remaster?

 

Not true, actually. The original UK McCartney CD's did not (both the Fame and regular EMI releases, as well as UK-for-US releases), and most of the original US Capitol CD's did not. None of the Columbia McCartney CD's did. Some of the Lennon discs were released in NR free versions, although others (notably Plastic Ono Band) have never seen an NR-free CD release. I am pretty sure none of the Harrison CD's did, as hiss abounds in them. The Astley remaster of ATMP has gobs upon gobs of NoNoise, positively drenched in the stuff, but you are right, the compression and weird EQ choices are what make the disc sound particularly atrocious. However, other Harrison remasters thankfully sound NR-free--Living in the Material World has nice, audible hiss throughout.

 

FYI folks... these are the McCartney discs with the white covers that you are being advised to avoid...

 

Badfinger: Come and Get it: The Best of

I remember buying this in 1995 and wondering how a "new" mastering job could sound so bad...