Attention Barry Diament and other speaker isolation gurus!

Hi Stephen,

Can you elaborate on the nature of the "air bags"? Are these the sealed type used to protect items in shipping?

If so, they probably do not offer much if any "bounce" and I would say they are providing more change (which may be pleasant change) than improvement.

Same would go for the marble chopping board placed atop such. The board would slightly alter the resonance frequency of the air bags, thus again changing the sound - and possibly adding even more from any unsupported parts of the board.

A proper air suspension would be quite compliant in order to achieve a very low (subsonic) resonance frequency. It would be "springy" when pressed and released.

Do you mean the First Impression rollers? (Sorry if I misunderstood.)

****

Aren't you using a Townshend Seismic Sink rack?
Isn't that providing isolation for your components?
(I'm more familiar with their speaker stands.)

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Just curious, what happened to the notion of the speakers being rigid so that only the cones moved in and out and not the enclosure as well?

When I bought my B&W CM7 loudspeakers a couple of weeks ago, the dealer showed me isolation feet called 'Ceraballs' from Finite-Elemente.

WOW! Are they expensive? $275 (for 3) that makes it $500 for both speakers.

Barry, love your input and also the advice you gave me on subwoofer placement.

JG

 

Air bags, yes used to pad out when shipping

Groan! It looks like I'm going to have to start from scrath.

First impressions, this is my experience of listening to some new tweaks that appear to make an positive difference.

I suspect that by the time I've followed your method this thread will have closed. If not I'll post my experience

Best regards

Stephen

 

I forgot to answer a question

Seismic Sink, yes, this certainly made a massive difference.

However I thought the shelves were probably a source for airborne resonance, there being no isolation from the main frame and being fairly thick.

There was a significant improvement, bags and granite. Even below my CD which is on the top shelf, which has its own inflated suspension. As I write this I have a picture something akin to the Princes and the pea, good job we have high ceilings!

If I go for Barry's solution, I’ll not need that stool to reach the CD draw.

 

Ive always wondered how the Ceraballs work. From what I can see, the ball is completely captive and can't move, and neither can the top cap. So from what I see, all you have is an expensive variation on a cone. Or am I missong something?

 

Hi James,

When I first considered roller bearings under speakers, I thought the same thing, expecting a sort of Newtonian action-reaction, with for example, the forward motion of the drivers "pushing" the body of the speaker backward.

I listened anyway and that made me consider that the resonance of a properly designed and implemented set of roller bearings is going to be far below what any loudspeaker (or subwoofer) is going to be capable of producing. The speaker remains stable but groundborne vibrations above resonance are blocked from entering the speaker (and crossover).

In my view, sometimes, in the face of new empirical evidence, the so-called conventional wisdom requires a revision. Once afloat, the degree to which my speakers "disappeared" and performance improved in every category I know how to describe, told me I'd never go back to non-floating speakers.

Now, with every single component in the system afloat, the ability to hear past the system, all the way to the recording is unsurpassed.

I'll add that when I first tried all of this (starting with my CD player), I expected nothing at all - or at best, a change rather than an improvement. I tried all sorts of cones, spikes, pucks, trampolines - just about all of the commercially available footers. When I got to the roller bearing type devices, things were real, consistent improvements all around.
Then I started thinking about how to take the idea further and ended up designing my own variation on the theme.

As I've said in the past, please don't take my word for this. Listen for yourself if you have the opportunity. And be prepared to rediscover your components and your record collection. And to do a lot of smiling.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

And a turntable that is mounted on a (dedicated) table on the floor I would guess?

I will definitely try a cheap version (drawer pulls). I have seen these in a metal frame. What is the best way to use these>

JG

 

Hi James,

It depends on the turntable. I find double springs (i.e. adding a compliant suspension to a device that already has one) not to work so well. However, if the turntable does not have a suspension of its own, I'd definitely try rollers. I'd also use an air bearing under it, which can be constructed for a few dollars using a child's bicycle inner tube and a 1" plywood platform.

Drawer pulls can work, if they have a smooth, rounded "bowl". Metal will work better than plastic. Either way, they should be embedded in a solid base, which can be made of wood. And use damping material (like BluTak) under the drawer pull -before embedding it in the base- to dampen it.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

i'm pretty sure that ball can move a miniscule amount. i use cerapucs under my stand. i used to use a rubber/cork sandwich. i found the cerapucs to be better at absorbing the higher frequency vibrations (my antiskate weight no longer wiggles as much) than the cork/rubber but not as good at absorbing footfalls.

 

I use Aurio Pro Max roller bearings to "float" my very heavy speakers. Not cheap, but reliable and very strong.

 

Just my opinion, but these will do nothing to prevent the transfer of resonance to the floor, which is much more of a problem than the horizontal movement of your speakers.

Of course, Barry and I have debated this issue before, and, have agreed to disagree!

HG

 

Well..I understand that there are two differences of opinion here...but let's not debate that matter in this particular thread please...I read that and you have a point...but I did ask Barry to offer his solution...and I will try to cobble something together that may look like Igor got to it before Frankenstein, but I will see what happens from that point onward.

 

Hi Barry,

I was actually referring to the speakers being isolated from the floor should benefit the turntable on the dedicated table, not putting rollers under the turntable.


JG

 

Hi James,

Is the turntable itself isolated? That would do more for the turntable's performance than isolating the speakers, which provides the greatest benefits for the speakers' performance.

Roller bearings without being supplemented by an air bearing beneath them, will couple vertically. They isolate in the horizontal and rotational planes. That said, they won't couple as efficiently as something like a spike will so they may provide some help, since the isolation they provide will work in both directions.

Bear in mind though, I use them primarily to prevent vibration entry into a component. That is why I use them locally, at each component in addition to the speakers.

If you really want to maximize isolation of your turntable, I'd isolate the turntable itself, because that will provide the greatest benefit, regardless of what you do with your speakers.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.cm

 

Hi HG,

Yes we have agreed. I think different perspectives are a good thing - healthy for progress in our pursuit of the finest reproduction.

It will be interesting to see how you feel after you've actually heard your speakers afloat.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

It occurs to me, for those who have not seen my article on vibration control, that I should post the "P.S." from the end of that article:

P.S. While digital devices show some of the greatest performance benefits when seismic isolation techniques are employed, the effects are cumulative and system performance improves as each additional component is "floated". Your loudspeakers too will show performance improvements, perhaps even more so than your digital devices.

Finally, a caveat: In my experience so far, there has been only one system that did not show the performance benefits I'm describing. It turns out that system had two characteristics which must be dealt with first, evidently even higher priorities than vibration isolation:

First, it was connected to a garden variety, el cheapo terminal strip rather than a good AC conditioner. Second, all equipment cables (line level, speaker and AC) were gathered in a jumble behind the racks. All three types need to be properly "dressed", to borrow a term from our friends "across the pond" in Great Britain. That is, they should be separated from each other.

So what I learned from that experience is that "dirty" AC and improper cable routing can obscure even the great benefits provided by vibration isolation. Only when there is clean AC and proper cable routing has been attended to will the benefits of vibration isolation be evident.


In that particular system, we tried roller bearings under the CD player only, not the loudspeakers or any other components.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Barry - at the risk of asking you to repeat yourself, how do you isolate large speakers on carpet. I have them spiked currently. Let's face it, without the spikes they would (and do) sound woolly with no bass due to the sound waves moving the enclosure on the soft carpet surface. They sound great at the moment with cavernous bass, great soundstaging and clarity. That's as much about system synergy as anything else of course - but could they sound better still?

The only other variant I have tried was spiking onto concrete slabs placed on top of the carpet. This, however diminshed the bass depth and gave the sound a harsh feel whereas at the moment I am completely satisfied with all aspects.

 

Barry,

is this anything like what you are suggesting, i had better put it back before my wife notices.

JG

 

Jeez! No that's not quite what he had in mind!

 

Hi Blencathra,

First, I use a marble tile, smooth side down, between the speakers and the balls of the roller bearings.
(For my Maggies, I'm using 16" x 16" x 1/2" tiles with a ~19" x 19" x 1" plywood "platform above the tiles. The speaker sits on the platform.
For a speaker with a smaller footprint, you may be able to use a smaller tile and may not need the platform at all. Just don't rest the speaker cabinet itself on the balls of the roller bearings, since it won't be hard or smooth enough to allow free motion of the balls.)

On a carpet - or any other type of flooring - I place a set of three roller bearings (one in front, two in the rear) in the largest equilateral triangle that will fit under the tile. Then place the speaker atop the tile. (If a plywood platform is needed -as with my Maggies and their "H" shaped footprint- place the platform atop the tile and the speaker atop the platform.)

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Barry - got any pics of said configuration?

 

Hi JG,

Nope. That's not it. Unless I'm not seeing it correctly, that looks like it has a convex surface (i.e. a bump) instead of a "bowl" or "cup" in which a chrome steel ball bearing can roll.

See the photo Vinyl-Addict posted in post #18 of this thread, to get an idea of what the bowl might look like.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

It actually is a bearing (that rotates) that in the barrel part with a spring underneath.

 

It actually is a bearing (that rotates) in the barrel part with a spring underneath the bearing.
Tried it under one corner of the speaker and it sinks down to about 1mm from the top plate.

JG

 

Hi Blencathra,

I'm sorry, I don't have any at the moment.

It is really more simple than the description makes it sound.

I just drew a few pictures I'll attach here.

The first shows an example marble tile (viewed from the top, as though it was on your floor and you're looking down at it).
Next to the tile, you see the roller bearings arranged in the largest equilateral triangle that will fit under the tile (also viewed from the top.)

When you know where your speakers should be (and how they'll be aimed), place a tile on the floor so it will fit under the speaker.
Once you see the size, temporarily remove the tile and place the roller bearings in the triangular pattern.
Place a ball in each roller bearing and place the tile on top of the balls.
Then place the speaker atop the tile.

The second picture is a front view of the assembled stack.
If you need to use a plywood platform, that goes on top of the tile and the speaker goes on top of the platform.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com