Attention Barry Diament and other speaker isolation gurus!

I'm confused. You say that you bought 25 Chrome Steel 1/2 balls from small parts, but I only see them in 10 or 100 packs. Am I selecting the wrong thing?

http://www.smallparts.com/Chromium-..._s=center-3&pf_rd_m=AIUBT5HP6PMAF&pf_rd_t=301

 

I looked at your link and I'm not seeing them anymore. They're pretty cheap so if you buy three packs of ten instead of one of twenty five, you're not going to break the bank. The ones I bought were grade 24, Chrome Steel. Tungsten steel balls are said to be the best but cost $$$.

I'm good for now with chrome steel.

Eric

 

Hi Richard,

Just make sure the bowl is a section of a sphere with a radius that is considerably larger than the radius of the ball.

Regarding the tile, when at the store, try holding one up by the corner and rapping on it with a knuckle of the other hand. Hold it up to your ear. With some tiles, you'll hear a distinct ringing. The better ones will just yield a short "thunk" sound.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Hi Gary,

Just use a larger tile (only one per speaker).
The tile does not have to be as large as the speaker's whole bottom surface.
As long as it gets most of it. For example, you might want to try an 18" x 18" tile under each speaker. (There may be larger ones but I haven't found any larger than 18" square yet.)

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Hi Hypnotoad, it's looks they have them now.

http://www.smallparts.com/Stainless..._s=center-3&pf_rd_m=AIUBT5HP6PMAF&pf_rd_t=101


I bought a package of 25 last week and now I'm in fabricating a platform using 3/4" sanded plywood and 3 drawer pulls inserted in the the playwood. Hopefully I will post the photos when finished.

Edgar

 

EaRp:

That's the stainless steel metal ball, not the chrome one, which Barry recommended. I don't know whether it really matters.

I bought these drawer pulls at OSH (my local hardware store). It was the best they had but I am worried that they are too shallow. Any thoughts? I could travel a bit further to get to a home depot.

 

Hi Hypnotoad,

I haven't tried stainless steel balls, only chrome steel and tungsten carbide.
The tungsten definitely improved things to my ears but the price changed my mind, so I went with chrome steel.

Hard to tell from the photo if the bowls in those drawer pulls have a shape that is a section of a sphere or whether they are steeper (like a paraboloid).

If the diameter is at least one inch, I wouldn't worry about the shallowness, which can be a good thing, providing less damping on ball motion, which translates to more effective isolation.

Are they metal or plastic?
One thing I'd be sure to do is to embed them in a nice solid base, perhaps of wood. If possible, leave enough room in the wooden base so that you can apply something like BluTak under each drawer pull and still have it fully seated into the wood. This will dampen any tendency of the relatively light drawer pulls to influence the sonics (which would come in the form of brightening or hardening - neither of which a good roller bearing will do).

Remember to place the trio of bearings in the largest equilateral triangle that will fit under whatever they're going to support.

Looking forward to hearing about your experience once you've built them and had a chance to listen.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Thanks, Barry.

They are chromed metal. The diameter is well more than an inch. It looks to me like a cut-out from a very large sphere -- somewhere around a soccer ball.

I was planning to screw them into wood. I could then slightly unscrew them to apply blue tac. Would this work?

 

Hi Hypnotoad,

Screwing them into wood would probably work.
I'd consider countersinking them all the way to the "bowl" and applying the BluTak under the whole bowl.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Thanks Barry, your reply and advice is much appreciated. I've been looking for an excuse/project to develop some new skills!

Best Regards,
Richard

 

Could I adapt some soup spoons as the bowls?

http://www.bhg.com/bhg/images/Store/Products/p_spoons.jpg

Thanks,

Mark

 

^Surely the concave nature of the spoons is going to be asynchronous? The ball needs to move freely in ALL directions - yes?

 

Hi Mark,

You could use spoons but ideally, you'd want a shallow section of a sphere, not the elongated parabola of a typical spoon. Also, the thin metal will tend to ring, adding a brightening and hardening to the sound that well designed roller bearings won't. (If you do use spoons, dampen the bottom surface with BluTak before embedding them in whatever you use as the base.)

Finding the "bowl" is the hardest part. Some drawer pulls, when embedded in something like a block of wood and dampened with BluTak will perform better than spoons.

Best of all is to have some professional made by a local machine shop but before I found the machinist I worked with, I got some pretty silly quotes. (One place wanted several hundred dollars plus a $75 "set up" charge. Not wanted to be "set up" I thanked them and continued my search.)

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Hi Barry, that's exactly what I'm doing with mine. I have almost the same drawer pulls that Hypnotoad pictured. I will countersink them in the plywood and secured them with liquid nail glue. I'm just waiting for a forstner bit to do the a clean hole in the plywood.

Edgar

 

Obviously not the ideal solution, but I found some plastic measuring cups in the kitchen isle at Walmart that are round with handles. Kinda like these:

http://www.amazon.com/MIU-13-Piece-Plastic-Measuring-Spoon/dp/B000VWH7WQ

The ones I bought were black plastic and cost something like $0.99 for a set. I bought three sets so I had three of the right size cups. I cut the handles off and set the bowls in a large hardware nut and use a marble for the roller.

 

Hi Fatman,

These are a good "econo" version to use for finding out what roller bearings can do. In my experience, even econo rollers will easily (and consistently and repeatably) outperform some of those $400 sets of cones.

That said, know that plastic may well impart a "sound" on top of the isolation. Also, both plastic and glass will flex, absorbing some of the energy that should all go into rolling the ball.

Using some putty or BluTak under the plastic will help somewhat.
If you like what you hear, just imagine the same results increased appreciably and you'll have an idea what machined bases with chrome steel bearings can do.

It will be interesting to hear about your experience with them, once you've had a chance to listen.

Have fun!

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Is anyone else having trouble balancing 91 pound LSi-25's on these or 33 pound LSi9's on 36 inch hollow stands filled with sand?

I am also having considerable difficulty with properly orienting toe-in due to the "play" of the roller system.

 

My speakers are now "floating" so time to give some feedback!

I am fortunate that I have access to a lathe (and a father willing to show me how to use it - just had to go around there) so I ended up with something like the examples shown in this thread. Cost was about $20 all up - $6 for the marble tiles (found as a matching pair in offcuts bin at a tile place, found out that granite "rings" - no good) and the rest for the aluminium (offcuts at an aluminium supplier). Balls were free via father's scrap bits and pieces.

The important part - how it went. After placing the speakers on the setup, the first thing that is strange is having speakers that move when you push them - they are definitely not unstable though. Listening to the outcome of all this resulted in much bigger changes than I was expecting (in a good way!). The most immediately noticable change was a significant improvement in imaging and soundstage - instruments sit in space a lot better and soundstage is wider, higher and deeper. Bass, along with everthing else, was also tighter (and better).

Overall, I'm pretty stunned by the change - anything that causes you to drag out music that you are familiar with for another listen (and smile) has to be all good. Has to be about the best $20 that I have invested in my system on a bang for buck basis!!

Now I need to make some for for my other equipment......

Thanks again Barry!!

Richard.

 

Hi zeppage2,

What are the "these" you are trying to balance the LSi-25s on?

As to toe-in, yes, it is a bit more work to make an adjustment.
You have to remove the speaker and tile first, then re-orient the triangle formed by the roller bearings. Then replace the tile and replace the speaker.
It *can* be done. (I've done it a few times to get my Maggies toed in just right.)

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Hi Richard,

Great news!
I've found the benefits are cumulative as you float additional components.
Speakers and digital devices appear to show the greatest benefits but to my ears, even solid state electronics show performance gains. Try them under a DVD player and you get visual benefits as well.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Well, I've been using my home-brewed isolation solution for the last week or so.

I used the drawer pulls that I pictured earlier and 1/2" chromium steel balls.

At first I put it under my CD player and noticed a real improvement, but not a huge improvement. Somehow I noticed improvement in bass a bit more.

Then I put three under my Rega P5 TT. Here I noticed a bigger difference -- it is a significant improvement. Pitches seemed more accurate. There was a noticeable improvement of note decay on instruments like basses and pianos. Pianos had a bit more sparkle and life. Perhaps a tad more dynamic blast. Unfortuantely, all of the sudden foot steps cause my TT to skip -- a problem I had never had before. I need some sort of vertical compliance. I guess I will try the inner-tube trick.

My set-up is as easy as possible. I just put blue-tak under the drawer pulls, put them in an equilateral triangle and then put the TT (or CD player) on top. It is possible, this way, for the drawer pull to fall over. But the TT's feet float right there, so it is just a 1/4" fall, no big deal. See the picture. This was a very easy way to try out the isolation without having to pay much at all and without having to really build anything DIY.

I am going to go get a couple marble tiles tomorrow to try floating the speakers. But honestly I am worried about the stability: one speaker is near an opening between the living room and the dining room. How much worse would it be to have it on 4 roller bearings rather than 3? That would help substantially with stability.

 

Hi Hypnotoad,

Is there any compliance in the drawer pulls at all?
I've known folks to use them but always when fully embedded in a base (e.g. each in a ~2"x2"x3/4" wooden block) to keep them from being compliant. I wonder if the Blu-tak might be absorbing some motion, in which case the benefits you hear would be greatly diminished.

Also, with the "bowl" of the drawer pull unsupported and undamped (as it would be if embedded in a base, with some Blu-tak under the bowl), you might be getting more influence from the material of the drawer pull than you otherwise would. They are certainly fine for testing the idea but I believe their performance would be significantly improved if they were in a block of wood with the bowl supported and damped.

As to using 4 over 3, I believe 4 is better than none but not as good as three. It takes only 3 points to determine a plane. If the surface being supported is not completely and perfectly flat, at least one of the balls will not be making intimate contact with what is being supported. That could result in some "chatter" that would make for a brightening and hardening of the sound with the rollers, that is not there without the rollers. (I believe something like this is part of the reason why some reviewers, having heard the brightening, attribute it to the roller bearings and not to how they were implemented.)

You can certainly try it with 4. If you use a large enough tile (even larger than the base of your speaker) with 3, placed in the largest equilateral triangle that will fit under the tile (and there are no small children, large pets or non-careful guests), stability should not be a problem. Again, the best way to find out would be to try.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Hi Gary,

That's been my experience.

Take a really good looking DVD, find a good scene and put it in pause so you can really see the details in the frame.
Then try with and without roller bearings (and an air bearing if you can do both).

Watch for focus in the fine detail, focus in the background (assuming a deep focus scene), amount of "snow", "grain", etc., subtleties of color.

Why? As with the audio effects, I've ready many "explanations" but have yet to encounter one I find totally convincing. While I wait for it, there are the many performance improvements in picture and sound to enjoy.

I'd be curious about what you experience if you try this.

(At this point, all my audio and video components are "afloat" on roller bearings and air bearings, except for the speakers, which are only on rollers. My wife is afraid I'm going to... Never mind. )

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com