Cream (BEST versions on cd?)

Dave, IIRC Steve has said it does indeed.

 

Ok, cool. Thanks.

 

Really. In fact, I've never really heard any difference between a UDI and UDII of the same title. I'm glad some feel that there are differences, however, as it enables me to grab UDIIs of titles I need at a slight discount.

I didn't care for the P33W of Goodbye at all. For my money, it's a top end boosted mess. A good vinyl cut of Goodbye makes that thing sound like treble happy dog schit, IMO. The 'reverb-enhanced' Drake version is far better to my ears.

Agree on the MFSL. The appeal of that one for Goodbye eludes me.

 

I was late to this thread and didn't want to read all posts. I own the "Those were the Days" collection. Which mastering is included in these?

 

I'm fairly certain if I did have Vinyl I might feel the same. FWIW my P33W doesn't sound treble boosted like you describe. I have heard other P33W pressings that do though.

Really? I've heard the Drake and it didn't sound as good to me. Wow, perhaps I just got one of the bad sounding pressings and will have to revisit it again in the future.

 

It is.

I did a shootout of "Badge" and even posted samples earlier in this thread (though they are long gone, of course).

The P33W is a treble festival compared to the Drake.

The MFSL is smiley-faced compared to the Drake.

Tonality-wise, the Drake sounded very close to a vinyl version of the song I had at the time and used for comparison. I preferred this, but ymmv.

 

Ok, let's knock that MFSL right outta da park. We both agree completely on this one.

As I mentioned previously I may have to revisit this Drake remaster. The one I had sounded like a lifeless piece of... compared to my P33W pressing that sounds relaxed, very open and living. Kind of like viewing a painting as opposed to looking out the window at exactly the same scenery.

 

Dennis Drake sometimes (often?) added reverb on early CDs. I wasn't previously aware of it on Goodbye, but it is present on pressings of Every Picture Tells A Story, Eric Clapton (s/t) and Beginnings (the Idlewild South portion, anyway).

He also used noise reduction/gating at times as well. 461 Ocean Blvd is a good example of this.

 

This is the latest revamp of my "Cream On CD" epistle.

Fresh Cream

The three most recent CD versions of Fresh Cream are, in order of release dates: the DCC, TWTD and CR (see Appendix for an explanation). The DCC is now out of print.
The DCC has a lovely laminated CD booklet replica of the original U.S. Atco release. It exactly replicates the Atco track listing, accreditation and cover – which didn’t exactly please the current licence holder, Polygram. Thus, the front title is surrounded by a rectangle in the DCC (as per the Atco cover). The 3 extra tracks (appended to the original US track listing) are Spoonful, Wrapping Paper and The Coffee Song, without any mention of this on the back of the booklet. They are mentioned on the back of the tray insert, however, whereas the CR version has the original UK track listing (which added Spoonful between Sweet Wine and Cat’s Squirrel), the UK “teardrop” containing the front title, credits the current licencee (Polygram) and is not laminated. The TWTD and CR versions sound identical and will be treated in the same breath in a comparison with the DCC. The DCC has more bottom end, a more intelligible mid range (Jack Bruce’s vocals are much clearer) and a smoother treble. This version sounds closer to the master tape to me, simply because it sounds more like a band playing. The sound, although “cut” at a lower volume, has more dynamic range than the TWTD and CR versions, so take care with comparisons.

Disraeli Gears

The beautiful collage cover of Disraeli Gears was produced by Martin Sharp, an Australian artist acquaintance of Eric Clapton’s, who also co-wrote “Tales Of Brave Ulysses”. The Day-Glo colours are a wonderful time-capsule reminder of the psychedelic 60’s.
The MoFi Disraeli Gears is now out of print (see Ebay) and has both stereo and mono versions of the album (the latter not having been printed since 1967) and the booklet folds out into an approximately ¾ size reproduction of both sides of the original cover, minus the horrible front top or bottom pink bars that ruined the Atco version of the album cover. The MFSL is, soundwise, MUCH better than any other version. The CR and TWTD versions are identical and sound, again, brighter, less dynamic and with less bottom end than the MoFi, but “cut” at a louder volume. The mono mix has a huge bottom end compared with the stereo, but the top end sounds a little rolled off. Ginger’s bass drum is particularly dynamic in the mono compared with the slightly wimpy stereo. Later attempts to brighten up the sound to make Ginger’s cymbals more prominent in the CR and TWTD, as well as rolling off the bottom end of the frequency response left a nasty sibilance to vocals and upper midrange glare to Eric’s guitar that isn’t present in the MoFi mastering. I would describe the result as buttery smooth, with a lovely kick to the bottom end. It’s a far more pleasant listen. The later Polygram Deluxe Edition contains 2CDs (the original album mono and stereo mixes with some stereo extras from the Disraeli Gears sessions recorded in England prior to travelling to the U.S. to record the album proper. Some of the extras were previously issued in mono on the TWTD set).

Wheels of Fire

The DCC (also out of print) packaging is a simply eye-catching, slipcase enclosed replica of the original Atco vinyl cover, as produced by Martin Sharp. The outer cover is as per the original Atco vinyl album - black print on alfoil, whereas the inner side of the gatefold has also been reproduced using exactly the same Day-Glo inks as were originally used in the US Atco LP cover manufacture in 1968 – a labour of love by Steve Hoffman. The CR version cover is the inferior black on grey, although the discs have part replicas of the cover embossed on them. There has been no attempt, even by the Japanese, to come as close as the DCC to the beautiful original cover’s appearance. Even the original Atco trademark was replicated, much to the current licencee’s (Polygram) rage. Some DCC copies (the ones made in the USA during the second pressing run) have 3 hidden alternate mixes tacked onto the end of the CD. They were "Sitting On Top Of The World", "As You Said", and "Passing The Time" – the last is the version that was originally released on vinyl and CD. DCC restored a deleted central jamming insert into Passing The Time and used that in the album instead of the shorter version. The DCC also has a paper insert mentioning the master numbers according to the Atco numbering system and when the masters were delivered to Atco.
The DCC sound is, again, superior to the other remasters in much the same way as Fresh Cream and Disraeli Gears – i.e. smoother, although having greater frequency extension at both extremes and greater dynamics. There is an example of some sort of overmodulation on Traintime at 0:14 (on TWTD and CR) where Jack’s harmonica causes very severe crackling that is not present on the DCC. There is some distortion introduced into Passing the Time on TWTD (between 0:25 and 0:29) as well as this version missing the deep “purring” of Jack’s keyboard bass that is heard so clearly on the DCC. Oddly, the CR version doesn’t have the extended Passing The Time heard on the 2 other versions.

Goodbye

2 of the 3 Goodbye live tracks (recorded at the L.A. Forum – I’m So Glad and Sitting On Top Of The World) use a different mix on TWTD instead of the muddy mix heard originally on the 2 track master prepared by Felix Pappalardi (and heard at its worst on the original U.S. Atco and MoFi CD, but also heard in a slightly improved form on U.K. Polydor vinyl and the CR). The original sound is completely skewed towards Jack’s bass and Ginger’s bass drums (to the detriment of everything else – the sound is almost AM radio like.) The alternate mix on TWTD restored the frequency balance so you can actually hear Ginger’s snare rolls and cymbal work on TWTD (listen to “Sitting On Top Of The World” – I never realized that Ginger was doing pressed snare rolls until they were actually audible on TWTD). You also lose some of Ginger’s bass drum work, but this is still a better compromise. The evidence for an alternate mix is that the stereo soundstage has been completely altered and not just reversed. Take care with comparisons with CR and MoFi for this reason – we are not comparing apples with apples there. The MoFi also includes a reproduction of the poster issued with the original Atco vinyl. Some marked distortion was introduced into Eric’s guitar on I’m So Glad between 8:35 and 8:37 on TWTD, which is not present on the generally poorer sounding CR and MoFi versions. Apparently, the stereo masters were found after MoFi did their version and were probably used for the CR version, whereas the TWTD version is a totally different sound and mix.
So, in summary for Goodbye Cream – MoFi used at best a copy of the master tape for their version, CR probably used the original master tape and TWTD used a different mix, or an old alternate mix, of the live performances at the LA Forum (apart from Politician, which was omitted from TWTD as the Oakland Coliseum version was selected instead). The MoFi edition is out of print.

Live Cream Vol. 1 and 2

These 2 albums were originally released separately in 1970 and 1972. Generally, the MoFi set including both Live Cream and Live Cream Volume II is the version to get, with a couple of tracks that are exceptions. The MoFi comes with a slip-case and a rather nice, informative booklet. The exceptions mentioned are the performances at the Oakland Coliseum (Deserted Cities Of The Heart, White Room and Politician) from Live Cream Vol. II. The MoFi and CR use the same mix of the Oakland Coliseum tracks as used for the original vinyl issues; TWTD uses a different mix of those tracks. The TWTD mixes sound cleaner, don’t have volume alterations on the fly, and avoid Ginger’s cymbals splashing into other microphones all over the stereo image. Although these tracks are a little bright, they sound so much clearer than the MoFi and CR that TWTD is the clear winner for these songs. The other TWTD tracks sound like a weedier version of the MoFi, and are thus classed inferior. I suspect that until recently, only the vinyl eq tape existed for Live Vol. II, which included a faulty mix of the Oakland Coliseum tapes – it certainly sounds like rough mixes were accidentally used instead of the finalized stereo masters, as the sound stage is far better balanced in the TWTD mixes and the frequency balance is far more extended. The MoFi Sweet Wine sounds as though the tape used was very slightly out of alignment with the replay head – the TWTD is slightly better, but doesn’t have the extended bottom end of the MoFi, while missing out on the very slightly phasey cymbals.
In summary, TWTD is necessary for the superior sound of the L.A . Forum live tracks from Goodbye and the Oakland Coliseum tracks on Live Vol. II, as well as the extra unissued tracks (the Disraeli Gears rehearsals, the alternative version of NSU live at Winterland.) Otherwise, usually the MoFi and always the DCC issues are preferable sonically. Those Were The Days also misses out on the L.A. Forum version of Politician as well as the version of NSU as heard on Live Cream Vol. 1 (the former is omitted to avoid repetition by including only the Oakland Coliseum version; the latter has been replaced by a completely different, and in my opinion inferior, previously unreleased version from the same run of Winterland performances).

Appendix: An explanation of the abbreviations used here is in order:
CR = Cream Remasters series, remastered by Joseph M. Palmaccio.
DCC = Digital Compact Classics label, remastered by Steve Hoffman.
MoFi = Mobile Fidelity label, remastering engineer unknown.
TWTD = Those Were The Days 4CD set, remastered by Joseph M. Palmaccio and Suha Gur.

 

What, no mention of CSG? Or the minor difference in Passing The Time on TWTD?

 

John,

Do you have an opinion on the DCC Wheels of Fire vs the SHM-SACD?

 

I've never bothered with anything else after purchasing the DCC Wheels Of Fire - it's that good. I don't have an SACD player.

 

Does anyone know what this is about?

"Some pressings of this album contain an alternative version of "Passing the Time". This "long version" is extended by 67 seconds, but also differs from the "extended version" included on Those Were the Days, which is longer by a further 8 seconds."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheels_of_Fire

"Some pressings" = DCC? Or were there actually LPs with the full version?

FWIW, the version on Those Were the Days only differs in that the second two bars after the fast section were copied and pasted to more closely match the short version, which did something similar for the crossfade:

Long version on tape (on DCC):
fast section [EDIT] 4/4 bar + 3/4 bar; 4/4 bar + 4/4 bar; vocals come in

Short version:
fast section [EDIT] crossfade of fast section and copy of 4/4 bar + 4/4 bar [EDIT] 4/4 bar + 3/4 bar; 4/4 bar + 4/4 bar; vocals come in

Long version on TWTD:
fast section [EDIT] copy of 4/4 bar + 4/4 bar [EDIT] 4/4 bar + 3/4 bar; 4/4 bar + 4/4 bar; vocals come in

That is, due to the crossfade edit piece, the short version repeats the two bars before the vocals come in. That two bar repeat was replicated digitally for TWTD.

 

Thanks for the info, Luke P and John B.

John
Cream nut
Vancouver BC

 

You don't say much about the Polygram Deluxe 2-CD release of Disraeli Gears. How is that one, soundwise? I've never had a copy of that album and am looking to pick one up.

 

I would just like to thank John for the reviews of Those Were the Days. I just A/B'd the Goodbye portion of the set for example. The original Polydor is flatter and brighter. The Remaster has rich bass although a little muddy. But TWTD is a whole new world.
Thank you John for a level headed approach and sticking to your guns. One post labeled your Best Cream cd's post a "nightmare" because of the cost. (They are what they are, especially in 2015.) Some actually don't like the TWTD set. I don't get that.
I had to jump through hoops and finagle to get the '97 box set but John, it was worth it.

 

My favorite versions for all titles are the Palmaccio masterings, exept for Disraeli Gear where I prefer Dennis Drakes version. The box set is worth getting for the improved Live Cream tracks.

 

I have several of the remasters also. I am curioua why you prefer them over all others.

 

The remasters were done by Suhu Gur, sulo, soomoo, whatever his name is Right ?

 

I don't believe that is accurate for the Cream remasters. It is my understanding that Palmaccio did all of the titles including the two Live discs and the TWTD box.

 

http://www.discogs.com/artist/229621-Cream-2?query=suha gur

I guess because of their tonality. The mids arent scooped and have the right presence for the style of music. Kind of makes it easier to get immersed in the music.

 

Thanks Sherry - just saw this.

 

My pleasure; the "book", photos and artwork on the '97 set are great also.

 

Looking for best version of Disraeli Gears, Fresh Cream and Wheels of Fire on CD. Please advise. Merry Christmas!

 

I'm fine with the re-masters of some 20 years ago. I thought they were fine and played the snot out of them.