Many LPs are incompatible with normal cartridges - can't be played without sibilance

I can agree that the Shure doesn't do a whole bunch to sibilance issues. And it's not on just modern LPs. I found a nice looking Decca Meaty Beaty Big and Bouncy that has big sibilant S's through Pictures of Lily. This cartridge seems like a nice place to start out, but I can tell my ears are wanting more. I'm considering upgrading eventually to the 440mla but would it be more worthwhile just to get a Jico stylus? Is there much of a difference between the two?

 

No, it shouldn't. Classicrock is wrong. Mismatched arm/cartridges can move the resonance point too low, to where structural feedback (footfalls) cause skipping or too high, to where very low bass (30 Hz) would cause the arm/cartridge to resonate and even skip (good thing that very few LPs have any significant signal that low).

Anyway, the SME is a medium-mass arm--should work well with any current cartridge. And I can testify it works fine with a Grado MCZ.

 

Am I wrong that I saw a video of that being mastered at Grundman? I'd be surprised if they were using the commercial cd.

 

That's crazy. Tracking weight used to be a problem with pressures of 20 grams, or ten grams. Two or three grams is just nothing by comparison.

Record damage comes from a) worn tip, b) poor tracking ability, c) poor setup, probably in that order.

 

Line contact styli will be more susceptible to picking up recorded sibilance ACCURATELY. But they will have less DISTORTION--i.e. running roughshod over the grooves instead of gently tracing them.

 

The primary variable in the sibilance of an LP is how much de-essing was used. Tracking sibilants is a known issue for LPs and for this the de-esser was developed. Mastering engineers can use it aggressively or lightly. Audiophile LPs, counting on better tracking, knowing no one is using a cheap crystal cartridge, tend to use less.

Second, as Hoffman has explained, the second biggest difference is compression. Older LPs were cut with a lot of dynamic compression--which smooths out those "rapids" in the grooves. Newer ones with less, or none.

 

It depends which Jico stylus. If you just get the plain vanilla I doubt it would make much difference but if you were to get their Super Analogue Stylus ("challenging the limitations of tracing")

http://stylus.export-japan.com/product_info.php?cPath=18&products_id=1526

then I think things could become very interesting. I would like to try this myself and floweringtoilet recommended it earlier in this thread. However this stylus costs $167 before you've even started talking about shipping or import duty. By way of comparison, Amazon is currently selling the entire AT440MLA cartridge for $169.25

http://www.amazon.com/Technica-AT44...MK3A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1311281693&sr=8-1

but I'm finding this produces an over-bright sound with my set-up, probably because of poor impedence matching from what I've heard and read. So you may get a slightly warmer sound with more bass from the Shure/Jico solution - maybe someone with more experience could advise?

Interesting. People are always cursing the compression used in modern CD mastering as if it was something new.

 

Compression dates to the 1940s. One thing it did was increase the volume of quiet music over the level of surface noise. And it's been used almost universally on LPs.

But the new digital compression can be used much more aggressively.

Nonetheless, IMO one thing many people like about LP sound is the compression, which when not overdone makes the music sound punchier (plus some of the old compressors added a glaze of not unpleasant texture).

 

The JICO SAS stylus for the Shure M97xE is a great combo. The JICO SAS is essentially the same stylus/cantilever as used on the Audio-Technica AT150MLX. I've had both (and then some) and they perform nearly identically.

 

The more I read threads and posts about who has trouble with distorted sibilance and who doesn't and what cartridges and tonearms they're using, the more it becomes apparent that what numerous cartridge manufacturers concluded after spending millions of dollars on research is actually true. All things being equal (key phrase), the lower the stylus tip mass, the higher the tracking ability "ceiling". For example, when confronted with extreme acceleration (i.e. loud "S" sounds), a stylus attached to a heavier cantilever will be more difficult to keep under control than a stylus attached to an equally rigid but lighter cantilever.

That's not to say that a cartridge with a higher tip mass won't track satisfactorily because many can and do, but it does suggest that those cartridges will probably need a more meticulous setup, superior tonearms, and maybe some extra fine-tuning to do so. On the flimsiest turntable I've ever owned, one that had questionable tonearm bearings, cockeyed headshell azimuth, and a "crunchy" anti-skating spring, my old Shure V-15 Type VxMR still never mistracked on anything at all including test records cut hotter than any of the current audiophile pressings I own. Other cartridges that I experimented with that had higher tip masses and more-or-less lower compliance did not fair nearly as well. I've yet to be convinced that was all a coincident.

 

Here's what Peter Ledermann from Sound-Smith had to say about low effective moving mass (aka effective stylus tip mass):

 

Here is an interesting post from another forum

http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=79690

 

That's a great post. It's so nice to see data here instead of speculation.

 

This one's for DaleH - from a digital version of Diana Krall. 3:47 into the track.

 

I meant to reference the "Back to Vinyl" sticker, which is the Rhino indeed. My mistake.

The cover and label on my copy state Made in EU and Sony UK. If that's a US press, then so be it.

I'm sorry, but unless you have a 2M Red and wish to post clips of the same, I'm not prepared to take your word for it. I've read multiple user experiences about sibilance issues with this cartridge on this and other internet fora since its release, which would lend me more credence to OcdMan's reference to the relation with higher tip-mass on its comparatively large bonded stylus.

As back2vinyl's experience shared in this thread indicates, upgrading turntable and/or tonearm had little bearing on the issue at hand. I think my results are perfectly in line with the stylus quality used. If anyone wants to compare these clips form the 2M Red, AT430E and a Denon DL-160, you can find them here.

I have no problem with expensive specialty records being cut to the limits of the medium, but in my view these two examples are mainstream, normally priced releases and, like many other new releases we've seen mentioned in this thread, would benefit from a more user- and equipment-friendly treatment. Just my two cents, you are entitled to your differing opinion of course.

 

Thanks Herman. This sounds much better than my record with any of my cartridges. Is this from an SACD or CD?

 

No problem, Dale. I wanted to hear it for myself too. It's actually from a hi-rez download I found, so neither of the above I guess.

 

I would like to see tests like these run on records treated with LAST.

 

Yeah, that would be very interesting.

 

I know there have been tests involving wear that were performed on records treated with the long-gone Sound Guard record preservative fluid and the results were positive. So much research has already been done and is just sitting buried in libraries, not easily accessed on the Internet. My father used Sound Guard all the time in the 1970s. New records that he treated with SG have held up much better than the records he had for a few years before he started using it. Sound Guard was developed by Ball Corporation (of Ball canning jar fame) in the 70s. They sold it to Audio-Technica in the 80s, who discontinued it at some point.

 

So would I. I have used LAST over the years, but I know that RCA/JVC discouraged the use of any record treatments on CD-4 quadraphonic discs. I have some I've treated and others I haven't, and I can't say I can tell a difference, other than this: Records treated with LAST preservative seem to have more surface noise for the first few playings after treatment, and then it goes back to normal.

Regarding the topic of this thread: I've purchased a fair number of audiophile pressings and have never had trouble tracking them with my Audio-Technica AT-14Sa, 440ML, or my Stanton L-727 E. The 440ML is bright, but that's the nature of that cartridge. The Shure M97xE is also a good tracker, though it seems to have some issues with IGD on my Technics SL-1200MK2 if the disc was cut hot. I recently played the new 45RPM edition of Rumours (yes, Steve and Kevin's version) on my Dual 1229Q, which is equipped with a Grado Prestige Black, with amazing results, though the Grado seems to reveal lots more surface noise than any other cartridge I own. I'm going to install a NOS Audio-Technica AT-12Sa on the Dual to see how it performs.

 

That one features a Shibata sylus, right? Do report back on the results.

I have an old AT247E (w/ ATS12S Shibata stylus), and it's probably the cleanest sounding cart I own.

 

It does have a Shibata stylus, and I'll be glad to report back with my listening impressions. The nice thing about Audio-Technica cartridges (especially of that vintage), is that when you replace the stylus, you also replace the suspension, so barring some horrible accident, you effectively have a new cartridge. I've been using the AT-14Sa since 1975, with about a 10 year break in use because I couldn't get styli for it (thank goodness for JICO!); I now have a fair supply of replacement styli which should keep me going for many years to come.

 

How do you AT440Mla lovers feel about the Denon 110/160?

I'm getting one of the two to replace my worn Ortofon OM40 until I get a new one. And to try something new. I suspect neither will be as good as the OM40, but I'm curious...

Thanks

 

I had the DL110 and I found it couldn't play my most difficult LPs without distorted sibilance. However I would be interested to hear other opinions. I believe the DL160, although similar, has a better stylus and I'm very tempted to try it. It's discontinued though and is becoming hard to find.

Another one I would like to try is the AT150MLA.

My dream cartridge would have the richness, smoothness and bass response of the Grado Prestige Gold with the tracking ability of the AT440MLA, for less than $500! Does it exist?